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CoachingDiscussion

I wrote an inquiry about a "learn to coach session." Then I noticed (again) there's a session on that. So I find myself wondering why my brain seems to think that these things are different.

How do you learn to coach other people? How about "consulting" whatever that means? Does watching some Maestro's for several hours do any good? Can it?

I'm a bit frustrated, and a bit confused by how this works. I've been around a number of "maestro" coach-types, and I still don't think I know much about how to do it. I've seen folks who go off to one of these kind of "learn by watching" things, and decide they are experts with a license to inflict help. I've run into the occasional Satir-exposed individual who seems to think they're a therapist now. At least they (multiple instances) run about "fixing" people who haven't asked to be fixed.

I have a puzzle, but no answer. The coachng / consulting stuff seems to me to go squirrly some of the time. At the same time, increasingly people come to me at work or similar, when they have stumper problems - usually with people. I'm not clear how that happened. Does this make me a "coach?" I don't feel very competent to run about influencing others, or even to offer that as a service. You won't see me hanging up a shingle for that kind of stuff - I'm not up to it.

I have at best an ill-formed question and a vague but substantial sense of unease. Any insight out there?

-- JimBullock, 2003.05.31

How do you learn to coach other people?

Jim, if the word "coach" was changed to "teach", would you have the same problem?

SteveSmith 2003.05.31

Jim, what you describe is the transition from conscious incompetence to unconscious competence. You're going through it, and no three-hour session is going to make you take the quantum leap into conscious competence. That's because it's not a leap, but a statistical change that happens a little at a time, with much backsliding and many mistakes. No coach's team wins all the games.

Have courage, and keep learning. - JerryWeinberg 2003.05.31

I have a dream that one day I will pose a real and immediate puzzle of mine and get an answer other than: "That's hard. Keep working on it." OK. Keep working on it. Do I get an easy answer some day, that is also true and useful? Statistically, I'm leaning toward "no" on that one.

Regarding "teaching" it feels a bit different, and I'm still a bit bugged. Who knows.

--- JimBullock, 2003.06.01

I see two definitions of coaching: teaching and motivating groups of people, and teaching and motivating individuals. The personal coaching "movement" seems to looking more for motivation than teaching -- someone to help a person stay on the diet, or as a sounding board when struggling with life and work.

I favor teaching one-on-one, but I tend to call that coaching.

I am puzzled why the coaching is in the title of "SatirSystemCoaching".

KeithRay 2003.06.01

Keith,

I see two definitions of coaching: teaching and motivating groups of people, and teaching and motivating individuals.

I wonder if the word "coach" became popular because people had bad experiences with "trainers", "professors" and, especially, "teachers". The US culture is in love with the coaches of its famous sports teams. I'll bet the typical US citizen can name more famous coaches than famous teachers.

"Coach" -- it's word mojo.

I am puzzled why the coaching is in the title of "SatirSystemCoaching".

I don't know.

SteveSmith 2003.06.01

Ken: One of the things they hold to in Organizational Development is that you want the learner (person or organization) to own the solution. If they come to depend upon the coach/trainer for their solutions, they become weaker rather than stronger.

An important part of coaching, mentoring or teaching is to let the student/client discover, often by making mistakes safely, for himself. The hard part of coaching, mentoring or teaching is to let go enough even when you know the answer.

This is similar to the situation parents face when their children go to college - allowing enough room to make their own mistakes safely.

OD instruction technique calls for "just enough" discussion to allow for practicing safely with feedback.

When all is done, you want the client to own the solution rather than treat you as indispensable.

--BobLee 2003.06.01

Jim, if people are increasingly asking you for help, you've probably been coaching.

I don't think of coaching as teaching. I sometimes successfully coach people about stuff I know little about. My attention is on how they're thinking about the problem, and on the skills and knowledge that they already have, but may not be applying to the problem.

My blog entry about Alison's Advice Advice says a little more about that.

--DaleEmery 2003.06.01

When Jerry and I put together our session on coaching (Novice to Maestro) we were really thinking about practicing basic skills. These may be understood but can be integrated by practice.

Relative to this I think of two stories. One is simply in the title of a book, which goes something like this: You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bicycle in a Seminar.

The second is the experience that Robert and I had in renovating an old building. We had a tenant who was quite keen on reading about bulding repair. At one point when his funds were tight, Robert suggested that he do some of the work on the building [some cement work on the window sills was needed]. Not too many days later it was evident that the tenant, who could talk a great line about cement work and window sill repair, had no idea how to actually work with the physical substance of cement, much less know how to trowel an even sill.

Apart from intellectual understanding there is value in plain experience. We all share. (The basis of AYE!)

Bottom line: You don't learn from other people. You learn with other people.

Expertise is a matter of practice, not a label. If Jim is confused by watching others, then perhaps there is nothing there for him. I'd ask what does he learn from himself?

BeckyWinant 2003.06.01

I'm confused by something else - kind of a "letting the genie out of the bottle" problem. I read an article last week on "team formation" wherein two pundits talking MBTI announced: "ESTJ is the one true thing in "forming" and "leading" teams, because it's all about telling people what to do." That is wrong so many ways, there isn't room to list them.

Of course that's what you get when a paper starts: "There isn't much data. We have two small studies with incompatible data sets that don't address our thesis. But anyway, let's talk about me . . . " So these two guys are clue-impared. Yet, how much of does 'helping' vocabulary become license? MBTI became a rorschach to project their biases, and a license to do so.

"Coaching" seems to be more active than models of the world. It seems directly about the process of working with others. It's not about the structure of noses but about taking a hammer and chisel to someone's smell-bones. What happens when "Maestro" attendees wander about with their shiny new fix-it-license in hand? What is this shiny credential a license for? Meanwhile, I have colleagues who offer workshop-y things and / or coaching. It seems to work for them, mostly. I'm confident this particular session will be grand. I have personal confidence in the folks offering it. Is that good enough?

For me, this session's existence begs the question: How to offer such stuff without creating little wind-up meddle-bots, who chug off - Nerrr, nerrr, nerrr, nerrr, Target, Engage, Pace, Inquire, Reframe, You're all better now (Gosh, I'm wonderful), . . . Nerrr, nerrr, nerrr, nerrr . . .

- JimBullock, 2003.06.09 (I keep hearing that AOL e-mail voice: "Welcome. You've got coached.")

First of all, Jim, Becky and I will not be punditing. Perhaps those two guys were writing a parody. ESTJ is precisely the shadow of the "team builder," the INFP (like me). Anyway, when you come to the session, you'll learn a few things, and coach the rest of us into learning a few things - if we want to. - JerryWeinberg 2003.06.09

Well, yeah, my point. I'm cool with you guys doing this. I'm scared to death with a whole lot of self-appointed maestros out there. So, what's the magic that keeps the users of offerings like "Maestro coaching" from getting out of hand? Does it come in a bottle? Where's the pundit-repellant woven somehow into the material itself? This kind of material strikes me as big magic, and scares the hell out of me at least three different ways.

And BTW it was my parody of Mutt and Jeff and their bad paper. I just boiled down the semantic content of their entire intro to save some time. Looks a lot different with fewer, shorter words. -- JimBullock, 2003.06.09

One thing that keeps coaching from getting out of hand is that clients are pretty smart, and they take at least a little responsibility for deciding what to do with the coaching they're receiving. --DaleEmery 2003.06.10
Jim, I really like the way you describe this issue, and I wonder . . . is there a personal or particular reason you are, um, championing this? Lord knows I would hate to be perceived as one of those mail-order meddle-bots, or have meddle-bots mention my name as a source of inspiration. --DaveLiebreich 2003.06.10
In the end all reasons are personal. -- JimBullock, 2003.06.10

Expanding on that a bit, I have seen any and each of the various communication models or interpersonal tools inflicted on someone who doesn't want it, and didn't ask. A bit more directly me, it seems to me that I have often been an object intended by someone to fill their mold. I'd rather not be reshaped. That one is almost pathalogically viscral, and has been with me all my life. Ask me, or offer me what I might become, and I'll consider it. If it makes sense, I'll change something. Really I will.

Along with that, I of course have the designer's fantasy. If only I had unbounded power to reshape the world to my will, it would all be just fine. So take your pick. I don't particularly want to be on the receiving end of "drive-by-coaching", and I'm concerned that I might inflict some.

I really am hoping to discover some stuff here. I have puzzles not an opinion for once. -- JimBullock, 2003.06.11 (Don't get used to the opinion defecit - it won't last.)

Jim,

I think Dale's observation is right on. In reality there are no absolute masters and no absolute students. "Students" know if a "Master" is spouting nonsense. I'm sure you know this. [That's ridiculous, Becky. Jerry] (-I don't think it's ridiculous that Jim could know this! - Becky 2003.06.11)

Where's the pundit-repellant woven somehow into the material itself?

A Few Red Flags (aka Pundit alarms):

  • When there is an "official answer handout"
  • If you have to pay a special fee to get the handout or answer, which is discounted for the next 2 hours only
  • If you have to kiss someone's hands or feet to be accepted
  • The pundit largely or only quotes him or herself in written documents, implying that no one else ever had these good ideas.
  • If you have to buy special software to help you get the answers
  • If you are told the pundit can solve all your problems if you keep coming back
  • The phrase "achieve incredible results" appears
  • The OMG says ...

- BeckyWinant 2003.06.10

Jim,

I love the image of little meddle-bots scurrying around looking for people to 'help'. It makes me grin every time I think of it, and I'm sure it'll pop into my thoughts as a warning whenever I get in a situation where such a thing may be threatening.

And that may be part, at least, of your answer. The only 'pundit-repellant' that I can control is within myself, and I've found that I can pretty much take care of myself these days. I still get annoyed when meddle-bots approach but I no longer get flaming angry and/or scared the way I used to.

-- SuePetersen 2003.06.11

A Sufi tale about coaching goes something like this ...
  • The student is excited about meeting the master and learning great and wonderful things. As the student sits in front of the master, the master proceeds to pour the student a cup of tea. He keeps pouring until the hot tea spills over the sides of the cup and splatters on the ground and the student. The student is alarmed and exclaims, 'Master, the cup is overflowing!". The Master responds, "Exactly. That is your first lesson. You can not acquire new knowledge until you have emptied yourself of the old".

- BeckyWinant 2003.06.11

Updated: Wednesday, June 11, 2003