ThingsOfSpecialInterestToTesters

How can we "Amplify the Effectiveness" of test documentation?

What do all y'all want to see in test plan and test case documentation?
What information makes your job easier, and how do you want it presented?
When do you you want to see the docs? Just once?
What other forms of communication can lessen or eliminate the need for these test docs?
Are there answers that are not project or company dependent?

--DaveLiebreich 2003.05.04.50

It might be of interest to discuss how to avoid losing out to outsourcing testing. Seems to be some of that going around lately.

--BobLee 2003.05.07

I'm curious what people think will happen to the tester role when an organization moves to one of the agile methodologies that puts a greater focus on developers doing testing (TDD). (Note that I haven't yet read Lisa Crispin's book but plan on doing so before AYE.)

-RonPihlgren 2003.05.07

Testers can provide lots of value by helping the project's customers express their requirements in testable ways. And they can help the customers specify acceptance tests.

-DaleEmery 2003.05.07

Ron, with agile development taking on more of the repeatable bookkeeping of regression tests, testers are freeer to level their load rather than wait for the bus to arrive. Designing and coordinating stress tests, case data intensive test suites, checkpointing data scenarios for repeatability all could add effectiveness and coverage. Having the developers manage and adapt the unit tests removes a lot of tail-chasing activity.

--BobLee 2003.05.07

Lynn Marie's comment on the LackingPersonalSkills thread clarified for me what made me uncomfortable about this thread. I am a tester, and one of the things that I will enjoy at AYE is talking to other testers. But if I was looking for training specific to testing, AYE is not where I would go. I come to AYE for the interpersonal stuff that I only get here or at Jerry's workshops or at Jean's workshops. Just as I will enjoy talking to people who do what I do, I will enjoy talking to people who don't.

SherryHeinze 2003.05.07

Good point, Sherry. I hope we can discuss lots of topics on the Wiki discovering what people think as a warm-up to meeting at the conference.
I hope Lynn Marie doesn't find the technical threads threatening.
Why don't we create some new personal skills threads that bring out those aspects you both mentioned?
I think there's room for lots of kinds of discussion here, but perhaps the nerdier of us are louder on Wiki forums than others.

-BobLee 2003.05.07

My name is Mike Melendez and I am a tester.

In my now almost 10 years as a tester, I have not found technical testing problems to be dominant where I have worked. Almost always the issues are interpersonal: the middle manager worried about bad news; the developer worried about more work; the senior manager sure that testers are good public marketing; and the attitude "we know how to test, just run the tests we give you". For me, AYE is all about how do I get permission, even encouragement, to test; first from fellow AYErs and, second, with what I learn, from the developers and managers I work with.

I appreciate AYE, among other things, for teaching me about the Yes/No medallion, backed up by PSL and Jerry's latest consulting book. I recently consciously used it to good effect for the first time. I did notice that the locality of the effect also depended on my management. You can always leave, but it takes good management as well as your medallion to work it locally.

MikeMelendez 2004.05.08 (I've decided to enter Johanna's timeframe in honor of her introducing me to AYE.)

I find the active threads vary from day to day and week to week, depending on who is around and who is working. I am not very technical, so some of the more technical threads are at least partly over my head. I usually read them anyway, since we all digress so much. Sometimes I learn something. Sometimes the topic changes focus. Some of us participate more in nontechnical threads, but some days I really enjoy reading the technical ones too.

Like Mike, I find that what I need most as a tester is interpersonal skills. I remember spending a long time on one project trying to explain to another tester that "ugly code" as a defect title gets roughly the same response as "your baby is really ugly" addressed to a new parent. This is even more true if the code really is ugly.

SherryHeinze 2003.05.08

I don't know that I'm threatened by the technical threads (which in itself was a hard word for me to use there because when I think of thread it is to sew something together - which of course works here as well, but my brain just doesn't think that way), and I, like Sherry read them and sometimes learn something. More what I was getting at is that I have had a lot of training around interpersonal skills and the stuff people are mentioned, like Mike and the Yes/No medallion made me remember it from my training. What I need is more hands-on and more refreshers of that nature. As basic human beings, we forget, which is why we keep coming back to learn it again. I guess I'm saying I want to somehow put more of what I have learned into practice. Other than practicing it over and over in all aspects of my life and being constantly reminded of all the goodness, I'm not sure what else I can do.

I feel like I am way out of my league technically with a lot of folks talking here when it gets technical, but like Sherry said, I usually learn something. Maybe what I'm after is a way to learn from those really smart, technical people and apply it in a way that is comfortable for me. Does that make sense?

LynnMarieHill 08-May-2003

All right, from what I'm hearing so far, I think people might like a practice/coaching session on something like

Problems and solutions for people who evaluate the work of others.

That would include testers, but other jobs as well. Individuals would present problems; others would consult with them; we would generalize. Does this resonate with anybody? - JerryWeinberg 2003.05.08

That's good. You see, some people don't realize evaluating the work of others is all about making sure they know you have the big idea, the big brain and all the facts. If you can hip-shoot them into admitting an error on some niggling detail, that's even better.

Thing is, I'm such a lightweight at this. I need training. I keep trying to give people context / process driven feedback on what I see going on, and asking them what they want to do about that. I clearly need help here, to bring out my inner PHB.

Wait a minute. Strike that. Reverse it. Sounds like a great session, Jerry, since all too often people who know better in their heads end up doing the stuff I've just described. Myself included, of course. -- JimBullock, 2003.05.08

Yes, strongly. I think the interpersonal skills involved resemble those of a teacher who needs to turn a student from "grade-grubbing" to learning without losing him. Added to that, a tester does not have anything like the authority of a teacher. Indeed, the teacher-student roles are frequently inverted as the developer has a much deeper knowledge of the immediate technical issues.

MikeMelendez 2003.05.08

Somehow I missed notice of my article appearing on the AYE website...

http://www.ayeconference.com/Articles/Secretofagile.html

testing is one of the forms of feedback that I discuss in that article.

KeithRay 2003.05.08

Updated: Thursday, May 8, 2003